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	<title>Comments on: Machiavellian Characters</title>
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	<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/</link>
	<description>DMPerez.com - The Domain of Daniel M.Perez</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel M. Perez</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4360</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel M. Perez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4360</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-4358&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Rich &lt;/a&gt; 
I didn&#039;t take it personal, no worries at all.

So it&#039;s a personal reaction to if those characters were real people, then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-4358" rel="nofollow">@Rich </a><br />
I didn&#8217;t take it personal, no worries at all.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s a personal reaction to if those characters were real people, then?</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4358</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4358</guid>
		<description>First of all, I say I want to &quot;beat the living snot&quot; out of your characters with love, Daniel.  It is no way a slight against you.

Xhodox never wanted to hurt Obi-Wan, he looked up to him.  As a GM, I loved playing with you as Kale Arkam.

But if I ever met those guys as people and I wouldn&#039;t get killed for it, I would take a pot shot at them because they are shifty, pushy and self-serving, double-crossing sneaky people.  They spend so much time playing both sides against the middle that they could be using to pull for the good guys.  But that&#039;s just me.  As a player, I see the value in that point-of-view.
.-= Rich´s last blog... &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.canonpuncture.com/2010/01/canon-puncture-85-game-advocates-%E2%80%93-sorceror/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Canon Puncture 85: Game Advocates – Sorceror&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, I say I want to &#8220;beat the living snot&#8221; out of your characters with love, Daniel.  It is no way a slight against you.</p>
<p>Xhodox never wanted to hurt Obi-Wan, he looked up to him.  As a GM, I loved playing with you as Kale Arkam.</p>
<p>But if I ever met those guys as people and I wouldn&#8217;t get killed for it, I would take a pot shot at them because they are shifty, pushy and self-serving, double-crossing sneaky people.  They spend so much time playing both sides against the middle that they could be using to pull for the good guys.  But that&#8217;s just me.  As a player, I see the value in that point-of-view.<br />
.-= Rich´s last blog&#8230; <a href="http://www.canonpuncture.com/2010/01/canon-puncture-85-game-advocates-%E2%80%93-sorceror/" rel="nofollow">Canon Puncture 85: Game Advocates – Sorceror</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel M. Perez</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4340</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel M. Perez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4340</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-4332&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Mick Bradley &lt;/a&gt; 
I don&#039;t wanna go too personal here, but I was organizing some papers yesterday and ran into my early attempts at keeping a journal. These are loose-leaf sheets that span 1992 to 1998-ish. In these, I self-identify as a Vampire (also as Phantom [as in Of The Opera] and Beast [as in Beauty &amp; the], but mainly and mostly as a Vampire). Clearly there is something deeply ingrained in my psyche about this archetype.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-4332" rel="nofollow">@Mick Bradley </a><br />
I don&#8217;t wanna go too personal here, but I was organizing some papers yesterday and ran into my early attempts at keeping a journal. These are loose-leaf sheets that span 1992 to 1998-ish. In these, I self-identify as a Vampire (also as Phantom [as in Of The Opera] and Beast [as in Beauty &#038; the], but mainly and mostly as a Vampire). Clearly there is something deeply ingrained in my psyche about this archetype.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel M. Perez</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4339</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel M. Perez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4339</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-4336&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Berin Kinsman &lt;/a&gt; 
You&#039;ve probable taken that archetype to levels I haven&#039;t (at least that I can remember), but yeah, it&#039;s just traveling down the same road; you&#039;re just going to a rest stop a bit further down the way than me.

I continue to wonder if I&#039;ll ever get a game where I can successfully pull off the manipulation and moral tightrope-walking without falling or hurting anyone, but though going off what JJ said, every time I do it, regardless of the consequence, there is a memorable story to tell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-4336" rel="nofollow">@Berin Kinsman </a><br />
You&#8217;ve probable taken that archetype to levels I haven&#8217;t (at least that I can remember), but yeah, it&#8217;s just traveling down the same road; you&#8217;re just going to a rest stop a bit further down the way than me.</p>
<p>I continue to wonder if I&#8217;ll ever get a game where I can successfully pull off the manipulation and moral tightrope-walking without falling or hurting anyone, but though going off what JJ said, every time I do it, regardless of the consequence, there is a memorable story to tell.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel M. Perez</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4338</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel M. Perez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4338</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-4335&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@JJ &lt;/a&gt; 
(Said in a prophetic kind of voice)
Mick and Daniel, forever destined to be at odds in double-barreled dramatic awesomeness. So it is written, so it shall be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-4335" rel="nofollow">@JJ </a><br />
(Said in a prophetic kind of voice)<br />
Mick and Daniel, forever destined to be at odds in double-barreled dramatic awesomeness. So it is written, so it shall be.</p>
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		<title>By: Berin Kinsman</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4336</link>
		<dc:creator>Berin Kinsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4336</guid>
		<description>The thing with many of my characters is that their &quot;adventuring role&quot; is their job, meaning that the other &quot;party members&quot; are co-workers, not friends. If the objective is Complete Mission X, and the other characters are doing things that jeopardize reaching the objective, my character will throw them under the proverbial bus without a second thought. That&#039;s just playing in character. Depending upon the character and setting, he may even throw them under the bus when they&#039;re being good team players if it helps achieve the objective. 

Most times, this stems from the setting and genre; I tend to play in a lot of modern crime and espionage games, where screwing people over for personal gain and/or the greater good is how the world works. For a year, I played an ex-DEA agent who was hunting drug dealers while working as a coyote on the Mexican border. I&#039;m currently playing (in different campaigns) an ex-Marine working for a Blackwater-type security company, a Greek partisan/smuggler at the end of WWII, and an internet millionaire who lost everything and is now homeless. 

Like you, Daniel, I am pretty much a straight arrow. I like good drama, drama results from conflict, and playing morally complex characters with dark sides makes for good drama. They&#039;re also fun to play because they&#039;re layered. There&#039;s an art to keeping them likable while letting them make bad choices, and sometimes even I want to beat the snot out of my own characters for their decisions and resulting actions. But it makes for great stories and fun game sessions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing with many of my characters is that their &#8220;adventuring role&#8221; is their job, meaning that the other &#8220;party members&#8221; are co-workers, not friends. If the objective is Complete Mission X, and the other characters are doing things that jeopardize reaching the objective, my character will throw them under the proverbial bus without a second thought. That&#8217;s just playing in character. Depending upon the character and setting, he may even throw them under the bus when they&#8217;re being good team players if it helps achieve the objective. </p>
<p>Most times, this stems from the setting and genre; I tend to play in a lot of modern crime and espionage games, where screwing people over for personal gain and/or the greater good is how the world works. For a year, I played an ex-DEA agent who was hunting drug dealers while working as a coyote on the Mexican border. I&#8217;m currently playing (in different campaigns) an ex-Marine working for a Blackwater-type security company, a Greek partisan/smuggler at the end of WWII, and an internet millionaire who lost everything and is now homeless. </p>
<p>Like you, Daniel, I am pretty much a straight arrow. I like good drama, drama results from conflict, and playing morally complex characters with dark sides makes for good drama. They&#8217;re also fun to play because they&#8217;re layered. There&#8217;s an art to keeping them likable while letting them make bad choices, and sometimes even I want to beat the snot out of my own characters for their decisions and resulting actions. But it makes for great stories and fun game sessions.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4335</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4335</guid>
		<description>&quot;The beauty of it is that in failing to do so, we always get great drama in the game, so I guess it works out.&quot;

I think this is the key for both your characters: you play characters that create drama. You are both plugging into the idea that tension creats drama, whether that be tension from double-dealing arrogance or decisive violence. Tension primes the pump for you to unleash double-barreled dramatic awesomeness.

I say keep it up, you&#039;re both doing something right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The beauty of it is that in failing to do so, we always get great drama in the game, so I guess it works out.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is the key for both your characters: you play characters that create drama. You are both plugging into the idea that tension creats drama, whether that be tension from double-dealing arrogance or decisive violence. Tension primes the pump for you to unleash double-barreled dramatic awesomeness.</p>
<p>I say keep it up, you&#8217;re both doing something right.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel M. Perez</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4333</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel M. Perez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4333</guid>
		<description>Obi-Wan in particular is very much that template, yes. Arkam kinda fell into it because Naomi pushed his buttons. Either way, yes, the cockiness is there, very much so. I think it also has to do with the same exploration: you know me, I&#039;m very centered, very quiet, but I&#039;m also arrogant at times, thinking I know it all, or more than you (whoever &quot;you&quot; is). This has bit me in the ass before, and no doubt in the future as well, so I try to play it in a space where I might be able to actually get away with it. Might. The beauty of it is that in failing to do so, we always get great drama in the game, so I guess it works out.

One day I will play the double-crossing manipulator that keeps it all on the down-low until all is in place. We&#039;ll see how that goes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obi-Wan in particular is very much that template, yes. Arkam kinda fell into it because Naomi pushed his buttons. Either way, yes, the cockiness is there, very much so. I think it also has to do with the same exploration: you know me, I&#8217;m very centered, very quiet, but I&#8217;m also arrogant at times, thinking I know it all, or more than you (whoever &#8220;you&#8221; is). This has bit me in the ass before, and no doubt in the future as well, so I try to play it in a space where I might be able to actually get away with it. Might. The beauty of it is that in failing to do so, we always get great drama in the game, so I guess it works out.</p>
<p>One day I will play the double-crossing manipulator that keeps it all on the down-low until all is in place. We&#8217;ll see how that goes.</p>
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		<title>By: Mick Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.dmperez.com/2010/01/31/machiavellian-characters/comment-page-1/#comment-4332</link>
		<dc:creator>Mick Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dmperez.com/?p=1830#comment-4332</guid>
		<description>I think for my part what makes me frustrated with characters like Arkham and Obi-Wan is the cockiness. You manipulate, but don&#039;t do a particularly good job of keeping it on the down-low. You wave your grey-shaded duplicity in front of us. It&#039;s like a form of blackmail. i.e. &quot;If I really wanted you out of the way, you&#039;d have been dealt with a long time ago.&quot;

You play like you know my character&#039;s secrets and will use them against my character, and like your guy is in total control because of all the stuff he knows and the pressure that knowledge can exert. You&#039;re cocky about it. It&#039;s like you&#039;re daring me to try to get out from under your thumb.

Of course, this is all filtered through the lens of the two characters I&#039;ve played alongside the two guys you&#039;ve played who are steeped in this trope - and both of my characters were the type who would tend to react impulsively, decisively, and violently to any hint of being under someone&#039;s thumb.

Just like you&#039;re a law-abiding rule follower who likes to explore shifty machiavellians, I&#039;m a passive reactor adrift on the seas of fate who likes to explore the notion of being a decisive, violently strong personality who refuses to be controlled, except by his/her own inner strength.

You play vampires, I play werewolves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think for my part what makes me frustrated with characters like Arkham and Obi-Wan is the cockiness. You manipulate, but don&#8217;t do a particularly good job of keeping it on the down-low. You wave your grey-shaded duplicity in front of us. It&#8217;s like a form of blackmail. i.e. &#8220;If I really wanted you out of the way, you&#8217;d have been dealt with a long time ago.&#8221;</p>
<p>You play like you know my character&#8217;s secrets and will use them against my character, and like your guy is in total control because of all the stuff he knows and the pressure that knowledge can exert. You&#8217;re cocky about it. It&#8217;s like you&#8217;re daring me to try to get out from under your thumb.</p>
<p>Of course, this is all filtered through the lens of the two characters I&#8217;ve played alongside the two guys you&#8217;ve played who are steeped in this trope &#8211; and both of my characters were the type who would tend to react impulsively, decisively, and violently to any hint of being under someone&#8217;s thumb.</p>
<p>Just like you&#8217;re a law-abiding rule follower who likes to explore shifty machiavellians, I&#8217;m a passive reactor adrift on the seas of fate who likes to explore the notion of being a decisive, violently strong personality who refuses to be controlled, except by his/her own inner strength.</p>
<p>You play vampires, I play werewolves.</p>
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